Transcript: Episode 143: Toilet Paper Mountain

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[00:00:00] Susan Barry: This is Top Floor episode 143. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/143. 

[00:00:13] Narrator: Welcome to Top Floor with Susan Barry. This weekly podcast ride up to the top floor features tangible tips and excellent stories from the experts and characters who elevate hospitality. And now your host and elevator operator, Susan Barry.

[00:00:32] Susan Barry: Welcome to the show. If you told me that I would do an episode of Top Floor about toilet paper, I would tell you to kick rocks, which is basically what I did to my guest today. After a series of mishaps and misunderstandings, Ludovic Siouffi and I finally met at the Hunter Conference and I finally understood why I should learn about him and his company.

[00:00:59] Ludo is co-founder and CEO of Fox Fold, a business intent on revolutionizing hotel paper products. Today, Ludo and I are going to talk about folds, rolls, and goals, but before we jump in, we need to answer the call button.

Call button rings

[00:01:18] The emergency call button is our hotline for hospitality professionals with burning questions. If you would like to submit a question, you can call or text me 850-404-9630. Today's question was submitted by Heather. Heather asks, how do you go to market with a product without having your idea immediately get stolen? Ludo, this is such a good question for you. What do you do? How do you make sure that doesn't happen? Or do you just ignore it? 

[00:01:52] Ludovic Siouffi: Well, first of all, thanks for having me. I think one big piece that a lot of people with ideas and potential entrepreneurs struggle with is why I'm not going to release this idea. I'm not going to tell them ‘til it's like perfect. And I think realistically, even for me to share this with you now, and you think, Oh, this is a great idea.

[00:02:11] Think of like how much work it would take for you to like quit everything you're doing to now go and learn about toilet paper, to go on this journey. The odds of that are infinitesimally small. So I, I'm actually more of an advocate of like, share your story as early on as you can get as much feedback as you can get it out there because it will never be perfect. And you will be able to like tweak it and refine it very, very quickly over time. 

[00:02:39] Susan Barry: I love that advice. Heather, listen up, go to market immediately. So Ludo, you worked in finance and wealth management for many years before founding Fox Fold. What about your past career prepared you to be successful as a founder?

[00:02:59] Ludovic Siouffi: I was managing a fairly large book of business for, you know, a 30 year old at a time, I'm now 40, but a 30 year old at a time with assets of management under a quarter of a billion dollars in assets. Now my core clientele was 35 to 55 year old entrepreneurs with a bunch of excess cash, looking for someone to help them manage that money in their whole codes, but they didn't want to deal with their dad's broker.

[00:03:21] And so that gave me a tremendous amount of experience working with founders at every stage from fundraising to dealing with cash flow issues to seeing like a million different investor decks, whether it was their own or others that they were being introduced to along the way. 

[00:03:39] Susan Barry: Oh, that's good. I didn't think about that.

[00:03:41] Ludovic Siouffi: Yeah. And so I got exposure through all of that through some of those best practices. So I'll give you an example. Like one of them that we met with. Um, she would, she, uh, she was the founder of Smart Sweets, uh, the gummy bears, um, at the time. And what she did, which I thought was amazing is she would do a promise to send out quarterly updates to all of her investors.

[00:04:05] Um, even though she didn't have to, that was not, she's not a public company. It was a very, very early stage, startup and I love them. I used to get them in my inbox and, you know, it had pictures of where she's at and what she's doing. And uh, and it was amazing to read. So now we've adopted the same thing where we've gone out and we've promised the same best practices for our investors. And, uh, so I've been very fortunate in that sense to like, have had that, like. You know, ground floor intel from a lot of them all over the years. 

[00:04:35] Susan Barry: That's smart. That's a smart idea too, because it helps your investors not just want to talk about returns, but really get emotionally connected to your success and like really be rooting for you I bet. 

[00:04:48] Ludovic Siouffi: That and you know, uh, I find that a lot of startups have the mistake of only reaching out when they need something versus, hey, take me along with you along the journey, along the ride. And so how we frame our emails is really simple. Here's what we did. Here's what we're working on. And here's how you can help us. Three simple kind of little buckets. And it's amazing to see, you know, people wanting to help in a really big way beyond the fact that they're investors. Like it's been, it's been a really cool experience. 

[00:05:19] Susan Barry: What kind of help do you ask for? I'm assuming it's not just like, write me a check. 

[00:05:24] Ludovic Siouffi: Well, it depends on what stage we're at. So now that we are live in market, going out there, obviously getting introduced to as many people within hospitality, at every level has been kind of our core focus, but before it wasn't before when we were in R&D for two years, it was, Hey, does anyone know a great lawyer? Hey, does anyone know, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, a great, uh, like whatever it is that we might've needed at the time, a controller, a CFO, um, and, and as we were building out the whole business, so we were very lucky to have that, um, in our back pocket. Yeah. 

[00:06:01] Susan Barry: You mentioned getting introduced to people in hospitality. You and your co-founders are not hospitality veterans, but I did find a little brush with lodging and travel hidden in your past when you were marketing coordinator at Luxury Retreats. What was that job? What was that like? 

[00:06:22] Ludovic Siouffi: Well, the short of the short of it is like, we don't have any experience in hospitality, to be honest, like beyond like a little bit here and there. Luxury Retreats was an amazing place to work at when it was very early stages of 2006, 2007, and just about to hit 2008. Um, this was before Airbnb acquired Luxury Retreats. Uh, and it was like a minor, minor little thing. Uh, so I got to work very closely with some of the original founders there and and get to see them like working days and nights and, you know, trying to build out this brand. So it wasn't so much that I gave me experience to the world of hospitality. It gave me experience to work with founders and people that were on the front lines, trying to build something at a very big scale. That just so happened to be in hospitality, but it could have been in anything. So -

[00:07:15] Susan Barry: Gotcha. It was like, your Start Up boot camp.

[00:07:18] Ludovic Siouffi: Yeah! And so, um, so the, but I would say the fact that we have no experience in hospitality or very little experience in hospitality has actually been a benefit to us because now we go in and we ask way more questions than people assume, and to that end, we've been able to build some really cool things that, you know, that were just never dreamed of before. And that's how we've created this new category of dispensers. 

[00:07:42] Susan Barry: Okay. So the premise of Fox Fold is that you provide hotels with toilet paper that takes up half of the space at half of the cost with no more waste. So prove it. Talk me through your products. Like what do you have? What is it? How are you able to achieve that stuff? 

[00:08:05] Ludovic Siouffi: Great question. So the average roll in a hotel has a life of about two days. And so an average hotel room goes through about 180 rolls per year. So therefore, an average size hotel would say 2 or 300 rooms is going through and this is where math gets really big, really fast, but An average hotel with 2 or 300 rooms goes through 40 to 50, 000 rolls a year.

[00:08:31] And unfortunately, because of that guest changeover, a good portion of those rolls, in some cases a quarter to half of those, end up straight back in the bin. And because they have to be removed out of the room, take it back downstairs and throw it into the garbage. Same with the tissue boxes. So working with GMs and housekeepers over the last two years, we built refillable toilet paper dispensers that inside are interfolded sheets of bamboo, ultra soft, extra wide toilet paper sheets.

[00:09:01] And so to our benefit, now you go into the room, you refill the units. And so now our whole tagline is “Refill Instead of Replace.” And so what goes in the room stays in the room. And then we have since now added a second skew to our product roadmap, which is the facial tissue box, which I know you have a, uh, a set that we sent you as a little sample to your home. But beautifully designed, but shockingly enough, that is the world's first fully refillable facial tissue box.

[00:09:34] Unlike any other tissue box you've ever had, which is a cardboard box with a cover on top, our tissues come paper wrapped, as you know, and so you very simply just take off the paper wrapper, recycle that, and then refill the tissues into the dispenser, uh, in the rooms. 

[00:09:48] Susan Barry: Okay, so we'll get into a little bit more detail on that in a minute, but I have to ask this question first. We, I think, We, the sort of general business world, right? We get so caught up in wanting to digitize everything that is analog that we maybe skip over some really big opportunities to make analog products better, still analog. So you know, despite being a young and savvy guy that I'm sure is a digital native and all that stuff, you don't have a tech company.

[00:10:26] You have a physical product company. Tell me about the pros and cons of that versus, you know, building out some software or something like that. What are the pros and cons of selling something that is a physical product? 

[00:10:40] Ludovic Siouffi: Well, first off you go to any trade show, whether it's hunter or, or you go to like any airport and you want to start a conversation with someone, tell them you sell toilet paper for a living. Guaranteed immediate like reaction of like, ha ha ha. Oh, like you're serious. Okay. Well, tell me more about that. And so, so that's been an, and like something that you just can't get in any other industry or let alone in tech, but similar to tech, we've had a lot of upfront costs to create a product to sell.

[00:11:12] So from engineering, industrial design, tooling, samples, um, it was all really, really costly. So, you know, and it takes time. So I would say that's like. You know, a bit of a con there, but it's a similar con to tech. The pros is that it's a very simple business to explain. And so once hotel owners and operators feel the quality in their hands, understand the dollars and cents and value and the sustainability and all those other pieces, um, I'm not having to sell them on something that they can't touch and feel that touch and feel is really, really important, especially within the world of hospitality, as you can appreciate.

[00:11:48] The main, you know, con, unfortunately, is that scaling is tough. So we might have a similar model to a whole SAAS company or, you know, probably more similarly is the printer and ink cartridge kind of model, but in the background, you know, we need millions of dollars in working capital to deploy for inventory shipping and many other hard costs that are involved.

[00:12:11] Susan Barry: Interesting. You mentioned, um, paper wrapping earlier and I know that being able to wrap the refills that go into the dispensers in paper rather than like cardboard, like a tissue box or plastic, like the rolls of toilet paper that you buy at the grocery store. That was a big deal for you. I think it was pretty difficult to accomplish, but it was also a non negotiable. So why was that so important? And and maybe is it as important as you thought? 

[00:12:46] Ludovic Siouffi: Right. Good question. Um, building the dispensers was far easier than building the paper. You can pretty much built anything physical, but within the constraints of paper, there's only so many machines that can only do so many things. Whereas bending metal in a million different ways or plastics is really, really simple in all things considered. So finding a manufacturer that would have the capacity and the machinery. To first fold toilet paper instead of, uh, instead of it being rolled, uh, was a challenge. Then in addition to that, finding it to be extra soft, made in a specific size, out of bamboo, and finally, paper wrapped, like wrapped like a present on all sides.

[00:13:33] Uh, it came down to a very few. Um, now we did find a few different inverters based out of the U S uh, we actually went to go visit one in North Carolina and they were, they were very on board with everything we were building, but they were very upfront to say that this would cost us 2 to 3 million to build out the machinery to not only fold toilet paper, then to also paper wrap it the way that you want it. So, um, you know, if you don't have that machinery in place, it's a very costly upfront, um, maybe something that we'll look at doing onshore. But for now, it's all, um, it's all produced out of Asia, which is where 95% of the world's bamboo is produced. 

[00:14:17] Susan Barry: I think it's important for me to stop right now and make sure that people are picturing this the way that they need to. And we'll put a link to your product, videos and all that stuff in the show notes. But if you're picturing like a paper towel dispenser in a bathroom, you're not completely off. But what's coming out is not like hard, crunchy paper made of wood pulp. It's soft paper, quote, quote, paper made of bamboo that doesn't like completely deteriorate in your hands. Is that a fair way to describe it? 

[00:14:56] Ludovic Siouffi: Yeah, so I think an easier way would be to say they're tissues. So we have two ply toilet paper tissues, uh, that, uh, and then, uh, we have a three ply version for the facial tissues. And to your point, they are, you would never know the difference between that and any other regular brand that you have. If anything, you might actually see them be a lot softer than what you traditionally have. So I, uh, I challenge you to like get a sample and, and put them side by side with what you're currently using, because to your benefit, I think you'll see that softness is, is not something that we, you know, we skipped on. Uh, we made it an absolute priority. 

[00:15:38] Susan Barry: We like to make sure that our listeners come away from every episode of Top Floor with practical specific things that they can try in their businesses or their personal lives, or maybe in this case, just to satisfy my curiosity. What were the steps, the specific steps between having the idea for the folded toilet paper dispenser and actually having this physical product that you showed me when we were at Hunter?

[00:16:11] Ludovic Siouffi: So the first step to me is what we talked about previously is just talk about it with anybody and everybody that's willing to listen about your crazy idea. And so to my benefit, after I came up with the idea a few years ago, I was, uh, I was going to TED, the big TED conference happening here in Vancouver, BC, and it was my first TED. And so to my benefit for an entire week, that was a TED. I got to talk with people from all across the world, from a million different, like parts and pieces, some in hostility, some like, you know, looking at black matter in space, like, and like anything in between.

[00:16:52] Susan Barry: A bunch of idiots is what you're saying.

[00:16:54] Ludovic Siouffi: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And very interesting people. And, um, and it was amazing to get like, their feedback and to hear what, what they thought of the idea. And, and then, and then this is where like, they were like, Oh man, you're thinking of hotels, forget hotels, look at cruise ships and on and on and on. So that was where it started.

[00:17:14] Then the next step was, okay, now that we have an idea of it, let's build a prototype. Let's build a prototype. Let's tinker with it. So our first dispensers were made out of, uh, wood, um, just to like, and I literally had a piece of wood box in my, uh, in my bathroom taped to the wall. And I just had the kids and myself and the family just kind of going through what an experience of pulling tissues out of, uh, out of a box was like. So it became kind of a bit of a fun project, right? Like, um, then we got feedback on that prototype. We tweaked it a little bit further. We had it 3D printed and so on. And then we found out, okay, well, what are we missing on our team? And a big piece of that was industrial design manufacturing experience. So we went through LinkedIn. We got partnered up with some incredible partners on that end.

[00:18:08] And then now we're at the fun stage where we've built something incredible. We're getting it out into the wild. Um, but I think throughout those, all of those different parts and pieces that I just mentioned, it's all about just momentum, right? It's all just about keeping it, pushing it forward. You're going to get, you're going to get hit up with a lot of known unknowns along the way. And I think it's just keeping that passion, uh, of, of pushing it forward and, uh, and, you know, and letting the universe kind of dictate its own way to how making it this reality. 

[00:18:41] Susan Barry: You talked about partners, and there are four co-founders of Fox Fold. Regular listeners know that I am a solo founder and maybe not always a big advocate for co-founders. So I have to ask you about this. Who are your co-founders? And What are the benefits to having so many founders? Because I think it would drive me nuts. 

[00:19:07] Ludovic Siouffi: Well, so maybe a pause on that end is I have a whole new level of respect for solo founders like yourself. Because you know, it's great on days where you're doing really well and things are going really well, but on days that are a bit more challenging, I have the benefit with co-founders to call them. And so we call each other, obviously, when we have big successes with big new hotel partners. But we also talk daily with challenges and we get to like, you're not facing that on your own. So I don't know how you do it, but I, I understand where you're coming from. But for me, it's the complete opposite. So for us, it started with me having the idea very randomly on the treadmill two years ago, or just two over two years ago.

[00:19:50] And I don't know how or why, but, you know, I was questioning the concept of a roll of toilet paper. And then I jumped off the treadmill and called my best friend and cousin who are two different people who are now my two, two of my co-founders. Um, and then I was like, what do you know about toilet paper? And you know, the joke is, is there were like Ludo, like what now? So, um, and then along the way, when I was mentioning that we needed some help on product design, industrial design, because neither one of like, none of us between the three of us had ever built a physical product before. We were lucky enough through the power of LinkedIn and everything to actually be introduced to Brett, who's our fourth co-founder, who leads up the team at Fox Clever, the design agency based out of San Francisco.

[00:20:39] And so he heard about what we were doing. He said, listen, instead of. You know, you guys kind of going down this end and paying us a fee and all that. How about instead you be the fourth company we ever invest in and we build this together. And that was another massive validation. He got it. It matched his sustainability theme for him. And so now he says is our, he sits on our board. He sits on our, as our Chief Creative Officer. And so we've been very, very lucky to have. that complimentary skill set between all four of us. Um, so I'm very, I feel very lucky and very blessed, uh, to have, to have them on as, as my teammates, as we build this together.

[00:21:17] Susan Barry: You mentioned that you've been at this for around two years. Will you describe where the company sits now on the spectrum, you know, from, free revenue, which I think is the funniest word, like the idea phase to series B fundraising to we're profitable, we're putting out 10 new products. Like, where are you in that spectrum?

[00:21:44] Ludovic Siouffi: Yeah. Great question. So we were in R&D for about two years. We went live last month. Um, uh, so foxfold.com is our, is our main one. Um, and it's, it's been exciting. We've been already onboarding quite a few different hotels across both Canada and the US uh, in the coming weeks, we'll actually be announcing our series A financing. Two thirds of which is really just to go and buy more inventory. Uh, we're talking to some big brands that are now putting us into trials. And as you can appreciate. Uh, I want to be ready for those trials to convert and then be able to supply and not wait two to three months for build out and delivery to be shipped over. So to our benefit, it doesn't take many hotels to start turning a profit. Um, we expect profitability probably by the beginning of next year, um, with just a few different hotel groups, um, or the equivalent of, you know, a few thousands of hotel rooms in there as well. 

[00:22:43] Susan Barry: We have reached the fortune telling portion of our show. You already told us the future a little bit, but now you have to predict the future some more, and then we'll come back and see if you were right. So what is a prediction that you have about the future of sustainability in travel? 

[00:23:03] Ludovic Siouffi: Good question. Uh, I think sustainability will go from a nice to have to a must do. Governments will start enacting laws and we're already seeing this in parts of the world right now, but we'll start enacting laws to restrict certain products, tax and penalize those who aren't compliant. Pushing towards net positive properties. Um, and I think one interesting piece from that is you'll also start to see companies that will emerge that will actually measure the net negative of different businesses out there that will calculate your waste output.

[00:23:40] Um, so I think you'll eventually see, you know many years from now, a machine that not only just picks up your garbage, but picks up your garbage and with AI and some crazy robots can, it can measure like, okay, well, how much of that garbage was single use plastics? How much of that garbage was compost and so on and so forth? Um, I think that from, you know, future wise, I think you, I can expect, I would expect to see that, uh, in a massive way. 

[00:24:08] Susan Barry: If you could wave a magic wand and eliminate a non-financial obstacle - obviously, I think financial obstacles is what anyone would pick first, so put that aside. You can eliminate a non-financial obstacle that startups face. What would it be? 

[00:24:27] Ludovic Siouffi: So easy for me this question, uh, language and time zones. Gone. 

[00:24:33] Susan Barry: Okay. Time zones is such a good answer. I hate everything about a time zone. Tell me more. 

[00:24:40] Ludovic Siouffi: Oh, man. If I could eliminate having to do calls at 9 p. m. and then wake up at, you know, 6 a. m. to then get on another call for this and that, like. I'm very lucky that my other co-founder lives in, uh, on the East coast. So we've got that, but even then, like talking to, you know, one of our board advisors, uh, lives in, uh, Dubai. Another one of our manufacturing partners is in Thailand. So we've got, you know, we've got it all coming in from every angle right now. So that's very tricky, very, very tricky. So magic wand wise, if I could be gone with time zones and be gone with like languages and everyone can speak a language, uh, whatever that may be. But, uh, that would be cool. 

[00:25:29] Susan Barry: What is next for you? And what's next for Fox Fold? 

[00:25:33] Ludovic Siouffi: Thanks for asking that question, because for us, it's just spreading the word on tissue consumption. I think some people in hospitality know that the amount of waste that happens within that whole industry. But I think for us, it's, you know, spreading the word that tissue consumption doesn't have to be that necessary tax that has been for 130 years. There's finally a solution out there to help reduce your costs and reduce your waste, and have something that's beautifully branded and designed on the wall that, you know, will help all of your staff and housekeepers and make them that much more than much happier. So that's what I'm really excited about. That's what I'm excited for Fox Fold, um, to like redefine what has been for so long. 

[00:26:16] Susan Barry: Okay, folks, before we tell Ludo goodbye, we are going to head down to the loading dock where all of the best stories get told.

Elevator voice announces, “Going down.”

[00:26:30] Susan Barry: Ludo, what is a story you would only tell me on the loading dock? 

[00:26:34] Ludovic Siouffi: I have to whisper for this one? 

[00:26:36] Susan Barry: Maybe. It depends on what it is. 

[00:26:39] Ludovic Siouffi: As prep for this, I've heard some really good ones. So I don't even, I was like, Oh, how do I, how do I beat this? Or how do I, but not, not about that. Um, so mine was - we had a chance, and as you know, like we're new to the hospitality world, right? So we had a chance to visit a hotel on the Las Vegas trip, which I will not name, but it is one of the largest with well over 5,000 bedrooms in that one hotel. Mega mega sized hotel. And we got to have a back of house tour with them. And as part of that back of house tour, I was very quick to ask them, what do they do with their toilet paper and their facial tissue boxes?

[00:27:19] And they were very quick to tell me that they, um pull them out and donate them to a local veterans charity down the street, which they didn't know the name of conveniently, but whatever. To give you a sense of scale, like this property alone probably goes through about 1.5 to 2 million rolls per year of toilet paper.

[00:27:41] Susan Barry: Wow.

[00:27:42] Ludovic Siouffi: So, so that's like to maybe bring that number down more relatable, they're going through four to five thousand rolls a day in toilet paper, right? Like just mega, mega volumes between their common areas and the bedrooms upstairs and everything else. So, um, they reassured me that they donate it, but 20 minutes later on that tour, we got a sneak peek to their garbage room downstairs.

[00:28:08] And so my co-founder and I were like, can we go like check that out? And the guy was like, “Sure, like it's the garbage room, like knock yourself out.” So we got in there and in front of us was a probably 20 to 30 foot mountain of garbage bags. And to our benefit, all of the garbage bags were clear. And what they do is they open all the garbage bags and then they sort out recyclables in there and the and how it works is the staff get paid on all the recyclables that they share in that bonus structure of all the recyclables and that's why they're encouraged to pull out the recyclables.

[00:28:46] So I asked the staff there on the front lines, like, “Hey, toilet paper, facial tissue, how does that all work?” And they were very clear to tell me that. It all ends up in the garbage. And so we snapped so many great pictures of that mountain of garbage. Um, we got so many pictures of bags filled with toilet paper rolls and facial tissue boxes. Um, and that was shocking. So, for anyone listening who might be like a hotel owner or a C suite, um, I challenge you to do like a proper audit of your business's waste. And I think you'd be shocked 

[00:29:27] Susan Barry: Do a little dumpster diving. 

[00:29:29] Ludovic Siouffi: Yeah. Like, or just like go chat with your housekeepers to go like, Hey, like those toilet paper rolls. Like, yeah, we might use some in the, like, in the staff bathrooms. But for most resorts, the staff can't go to the bathroom fast enough to keep up with the amount of toilet paper being thrown at them. Right? So I would, um, I would put that out, put that out as a challenge to like, go out and do that because se, we see it like, and we saw that really, you know, front and center, um, through that.

[00:30:01] Susan Barry: That is amazing.  

[00:30:03] Ludovic Siouffi: That was my loading dock, quite literally at the loading dock. Yeah. That's my, that's my story. 

[00:30:08] Susan Barry: What did that person giving you the tour say, or did they know you had that conversation? 

[00:30:12] Ludovic Siouffi: Well, the person giving me the tour, um, shockingly enough was part of sustainability for the hotel or the part of the sustainability team. And I didn't, I didn't want to like, I didn't want to, you know, throw them under the bus here with like, Hey, you told me this and like, like, look, like what you tell me, like, what's, what's wrong with this picture, you know? 

[00:30:37] Susan Barry: Yeah. 

[00:30:37] Ludovic Siouffi: But, um, I'm kind of saving that card for when we, when we go and chat with people and yeah. When we go, when we go to chat with some of those larger hotels down the road and they tell me the same thing. I'd be like, “Well, actually, um, I, do you want to go down to your room right now? Like here's what we, here's what we saw, but let's go down right now and let's go have a chat and let's go check it out.”

[00:31:01] And I think, uh, and we've done that at a smaller scale, not at a bigger scale, but, um, and yeah, it's, It's really sad. It's a sad reality that there is no alternative that toilet paper cannot be recycled and that people will never remove the cardboard from inside the toilet paper roll to restart to recycle that piece of cardboard. It just gets tossed away. They don't have time. They're cleaning, you know, a dozen to two dozen rooms a day. There's no time to recycle, uh, you know, something that costs a few cents, but you multiply those few cents times a million or 2 million rolls per year. Uh, they're not so, so tiny anymore. So there you go.

[00:31:42] Susan Barry: Ludo Siouffi, thank you so much for being here. I know that our listeners never thought they would enjoy a conversation about toilet paper as much as they have. And I really appreciate you riding up to the top floor.  

[00:31:58] Ludovic Siouffi: Thank you for having me.

[00:36:01] Susan Barry: Thanks so much for listening. You can find the show notes at topfloorpodcast.com/episode/143. Jonathan Albano is our editor, producer, and all around genius. He even wrote and performed our theme song with vocals by Cameron Albano. You can subscribe to Top Floor on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you like to listen. And your rating or review will go a long way in helping us give you more of what you like. 

[00:32:36] Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Top Floor Podcast at www.topfloorpodcast.com. Have a hospitality marketing question? Reach us at 850-404-9630 to be featured in a future episode.